Hillsong - A Case For Change
There has been much talk, in the threads about documenting a “Case For Change” for Hillsong.
And very soon, Tanya Levin’s new book “Glass Houses” will hit both the boookstores, and the words contained within will be discussed and debated across the Blogosphere.
Recently, the Bulletin published a positive article on Hillsong, and to be more specific, the closing sermon:
“Skinner addressed the crowd with a blunt message: “You can’t separate God in his awesome power in heaven from the snotty, bloated kid with the fly in his eye in the ditch. God is not impressed by the size of our church. God is not impressed by how many times we go to church but by how much we become like Jesus. The world is on an accumulation binge - give me more and more and more - but God is a giver.”
We have all discussed the ‘what needs to change’ - but I am now left thinking.
1) Is real Change possible within Hillsong and other contemporary Churches?
2) What will be the real driver for change in the Contemporary Church (that includes Hillsong) - Critique or the Gospel?
3) Is reconcilliation without compromise really possible between the Contemporary Church and those overwhelmingly disenfranchised by it?
August 4th, 2007 at 6:13 pm
Refer # 31
“just dont look into things… God knows what is right and if something is not right he’ll fix it… Just be obediant and if you submit to your leader god will honour you even if they are doing wrong…”
The issue arising out of this is handing over or ceding our personal responsibility to someone else - it is laziness and lack of ownership for our lives.
It is convenient also to let someone else to the thinking for us.
As Get rid of the spin and Neill07 point, our accountability is to Jesus first and then others.
I think if this where you want to challenge someone this is where you do it - through scripture and the testimony of others, pushing people to grow and own their own thoughts, to test and seek God first, and not take the easy way out by putting their trust in another man or woman before God.
The damage from trusting men and women before God as we see is huge.
Facelift you said at #77:
“I am a Pentecostal, considering my options …….and how I might be able to work with other believers to get things right which need to be changed.”
Sounds like works to me - I think I’d be careful with that.
To everyone else.
I wrote a song about this sort 20 years ago called “A Man like You” which is a conversation between two people - the aftermath of one who put their trust in the other, and built them up to God status when they shouldn’t have:
I don’t wanna hear about you anymore
I don’t wanna hear about you anymore
You took my trust and now I feel used
I don’t wanna hear about you anymore
But you set me up like some kind of God
You said I was so wonderful, too good to be true
And you were right because I forgot
I was nothing more than just a man like you
I can’t say what I think about you
I can’t say what I think about you
I gave you my trust and now I feel used
I can’t say what I think about you
But you didn’t tell me how far I could go
You didn’t say what I couldn’t do
With your expectation how could I know
How quickly I’d fall to become just like you
Isn’t it strange to see the mighty fall
How quickly they change from hero to villain
We marvel and and wonder in an age old stupor
You say I’d sink like a stone, you must be kidding
etc etc
Cheers
MN
I don’t wanna hear about you anymore
You took my trust and now I feel used
I don’t wanna hear about you anymore
August 4th, 2007 at 6:23 pm
Clearly poverty teaching is a problem, because most none Christians seem to think churches should have no money for their activities, and that church leaders should somehow live without it.
I have never heard of this teaching. I’m an elder in our church and we know the responsibility of looking after our church’s finances (which are quite considerable compared to many Presbyterian churches).
There is, within the Roman Catholic church, a focus on poverty as being righteous but that comes from middle-ages monastic experience.
“Poverty teaching” is, I believe, a non-existent “alternative” that word/faith preachers use to promote their own position. In that case it is a “straw man”.
But I could be wrong. Can you provide any links?
No denomination has an exclusive handle of Bible doctrine. Most add something which isn’t there, or leave something out, or teach it incorrectly.
That’s a bit of a post-modern way of thinking. Do you somehow think that all denominations are equally afflicted or are some more afflicted than others?
August 4th, 2007 at 6:43 pm
Facelift,
I have to be brief.
1) Credible sources beyond wikipedia (including CRI/Watchman etc) conect the teachings of EW Kenyon with the WoF doctrines.
2) Regardless of whether he repented or not, his influence on the movement is undeniable, as these erroneous teachings influenced and ins some cases were ‘lifted’ by Kenneth Hagin, father of the WoF as followed by Copeland, Hinn, Riverview, Houston and others.
3) The WoF movement which you advocate, is clearly erroneous - even in its present form. It is “another gospel” which bears closer resemblance to “The Secret” than it does orthodox Christianity. http://www.thesecret.tv/
4) “Heresy is often Truth taken to an extreme”. This ONE of the key reasons as to why your point of view is anaethema to the gospel. Prosperity is mentioned in the Bible - but it must be tempered with the teachings of Jesus and couched within a proper ’stewardship’ theology … Prosperity theology, as promoted by WoF teachers is dangerous and misleading teaching.
5) It do not understand how you see me changing the topic.
6) There is plenty of eveidence for the speaking circuit throughout this site. But why don’t you start looking for answers by reaesrching how your own leaders and special visiting teachers such as ‘Jesse Duplantis’ “make their money”…?
August 4th, 2007 at 7:15 pm
Benny Hinn was credentialled as an AOG pastor once (not sure about now) and was the invited guest speaker at an AOG National Conference here in my home town in, hmm 1997? Endorsed by the then National Superintendent of the AOG (who I think was also world something or other as well) and currently Family First senator in the SA Legislative Assembly, Andrew Evans.
August 4th, 2007 at 7:25 pm
It got lost in the debate, but I appreciate your comments Facelift.
It is all very confusing, but part of my goal of the website has been to find an intellgient and critically thinking Hillsonger who can answer my concers.
The only guy who came close so far hadn’t even been to Hillsong.
August 4th, 2007 at 7:34 pm
Ooops I should say, it’s not longer the AOG, according to the ever changing AOG website, it’s “Australian Christian Churches, a movement of Pentecostal Churches in voluntary cooperation.”
Touch not my family business. Houston and cronies have stitched everyone up real good.
August 4th, 2007 at 7:38 pm
Emblazoned:
ROFL…!
But what do you expect … they don’t train their yout to think. In fact they don’t like their people to think!
Remember, as one comment stated “Don’t look into things!”
You and me and others have been sucked into a cult … and the pain you are feeling is the realisation that you (like me) have been duped.
Read this carefully,
http://www.rjd268.com/spiritual_abuse.htm
Stay off the blogs for a a few days. Go to the beach. Enjoy some days! the dark days will pass … slowly. It’s a sort of a grieving process.
Your whole identity, your whole belief system has been shattered, and replaced with the Truth. this is why it hurts.
But mate, you,like me are a Melancholy. We think deeply. we yearn for the Truth. we make friends cautiously. It cuts deeply when you have been betrayed.
But on a positive, you have had an “idol” smashed. You realise the falseness of something that you thought could help you get closer to God. You have to realised that man is sinful. Man is utterly depraved.
But God still loves us … learn to let what was done on Calvary be the only thing you need (spiritually). rely on that alone - not man - whether they be charisamatic, annointed leaders or not.
Remember, those things that do not destroy you - will only make you stronger.
A little less naieve. Alot wiser. And stronger in Him.
August 4th, 2007 at 8:32 pm
Well said LF
August 5th, 2007 at 12:40 am
Thanks mate….
Yes I need a break.
I’ll try and stay away from this all for a bit, just to even keel a bit more.
Today it’s been hitting me fairly hard…all the more after reading Tanya’s book. I thought I was through it, but there seems like a lot more to go.
Sorry, I don’t mean to be a sop. God bless you all. Let’s keep truth number one.
August 5th, 2007 at 8:02 am
Hang in there emblazoned, it takes a long time to get over it, you have to be patient, but it does go. It does help to distance oneself from it all, then normality tends to creep in and the fog lifts gradually. As long as you still go there, either physically or online or both, it will rule your thinking and slow down the moving on process and if you haven’t completed the leaving and separation era in your life it’s counter productive to keep being involved in any way. It’s hard to help others if you yourself are still in turmoil or depression and all the other emotional rides we go on.
It’s taken me 9 years since I left and 4 since I stopped beating the hs drum to find myself again, I regard my 15 years there as the wasted years so just be thankful you got out in time to enjoy your productive years to come, I don’t know if you work at some career but it is a good place to start to get into it and leave the controllers behind. Please don’t neglect reading your bible because there is your guidance. Thus ends fatherly advice . Hang in there.
August 5th, 2007 at 8:50 am
I think i’ve come to learn that no experience in life can actually destroy us. it is more about our responses to them. People have negative expereinces in all churches and denominations.
The day i stood in front of the congregation (http://www.anthonyvennbrown.com/chapter1.pdf) and confessed my adultery and resigned from the ministy I honestly thought i’d died. The following three weeks of continual weeping indicated how traumatic that experience was.
Today though I thank God for that day. there was a death. there had to be. A death of all that was not real in my life and beliefs. It may sound cliched …but in life we either become bitter or better (old sermon…hehe). I think the choice is ours. I’m not excusing or justifying the things that others may have done to us though. everyone must answer for thier own actions. I do know though that the moment I choose to forgive was a defining moment in our lives and is the only thing I can point to that created the sense of peace and resolution I have today.
this quote I found has been an inspiration to me I hope it helps some here.
People who exist at the margins of society are very much like Alice in Wonderland. They are not required to make the tough decision to risk their lives by embarking on an adventure of self-discovery. They have already been thrust beyond the city’s walls that keep ordinary people at a safe distance from the unknown. For at least some outsiders, “alienation” has destroyed traditional presumptions of identity and opened up the mythic hero’s path to the possibility of discovery. What outsiders discover in their adventures on the other side of the looking glass is the courage to repudiate self-contempt and recognise their “alienation” as a precious gift of freedom from arbitrary norms that they did not make and did not sanction. At the moment a person questions the validity of the rules, the victim is no longer a victim.’
‘The Mythology of Transgression – Homosexuality as a Metaphor’
by Jamake Highwater
August 5th, 2007 at 8:51 am
ps……..it is always easier to look without than within.
August 5th, 2007 at 9:14 am
Good grief AVB, is it every possible for you to make a comment without promoting your book and your cause? Did it ever occur to you that the whole world is not about you sunshine?
Emblazoned - take LF’s advice. Go chill out. Head for the beach. Let things sit for a while. Your foundations may have been knocked out from under you, but rest assured Christ will rebuild your foundation on Himself. In His good time. He hasn’t moved one tiny inch away from you. I will pray for you this morning at church.
August 5th, 2007 at 11:38 am
I appreciated AVBs comments as he seems to have come from the same place as most of us but also has some insights about moving on. Thanks also for your comment about retrenchment causing the same issues as I have experienced both retrenchment and church problems.
Emblazoned, have you considered anti-depressants? Although I dont like the idea of them myself, I have used them to get through some difficult times. If you are not sleeping, thats pretty serious and if prolonged you could be facing some worse health issues. I found the anti-deps helped me stop going over and over things in my sub-conscious and got me back on track in a couple of days.
I know that dosent sound very spiritual, and in fact the anti-deps tended to block my appreciation of God. Still they can be a good crutch for a few days/weeks and God is still with you.
August 5th, 2007 at 12:47 pm
Getting back to the purpose of this thread….A Case for Change…..if i was Publicity Officer for Hillsong i would do the following, quickly….
1. Make a very public (& very large) donation to a charity that deals specifically with the survivors of sexual abuse. Make sure all media is there to cover it. Make a commitment to donate sizably to a charity of that type every year. At the same time, to coincide, a media statement should be made acknowledging there are agencies who are much better at dealing with these issues than Hillsong & Hillsong wishes to support them on an ongoing basis.
2. Slowly & respectfully pull back on Bobbie as figurehead of Colour My world & reassign her to something more commensurate with her personality. She would be replaced by a charismatic woman, possibly single, older & not “traditionally beautiful” & this person should also be a public advocate of the sexually abused & possibly be a survivor of sexual abuse herself. This woman should be appointed to the Board of Directors. This woman would befriend Tanya Levin & personally & publicly invite her to attend the next women’s conference in an act of reconcilation.
3. Very public telethons should occur using Hillsong’s musicians to raise money for charities that attend to the sexually abused - with a focus on sexual abuse that might have occurred within the christian church. Brians personal Harley Davidson should be auctioned off to the top bidder at this event & all proceeds going to that charity.
4. Geoff Bullock, Pat Mesiti & Anthony Venn-Brown to be invited to the next Men’s Conference, not necessarily as speakers, but as attendees to pray with the men of Hillsong in a public act of reconcilation.
5. Brian Houston issues a media statement stating that the Assemblies Of God movement is “working through the process of establishing it’s position on Gay Christians & appealing for patience” & that in the meantime Gay & Lesbian people are welcome to worship at either campus.
6. A statement made that volunteerism is exactly that, …voluntary & not an obligatory requirement for passing in college. That voluntary work should be an outworking of a persons desire to serve, not of their fear at losing status in the church if they don’t.
Lack of voluntary work, for those that are not moved to, will not be penalised in any way.
7. That the practice of prophesying authoritatively over another person is to cease & evolve to relaying spirit-motivated impressions to another person & allowing the Holy Spirit to interpert the meaning for the end-user. This would make up part of an internal document / code of ethics that all pastors must sign titled “avoiding spiritual abuse”.
Any thoughts / criticisms?
August 5th, 2007 at 12:54 pm
I appreciated AVB’s comments as well .
I know a very good psychologist who works at Chatswood - I believe that seeing a psychologist is now covered by Medicare but I don’t know the full details .
http://www.sueadams.com.au/
August 5th, 2007 at 1:41 pm
Reve, just two thoughts as I read these suggestions. Yes, there is a certain amount of spin that could lift the positive in the public’s eyes; however, I’m not so sure that Hills would see the need.
As for Bobbie being removed from Colour, that just ain’t gonna happen–and personally, I’m not so sure it should. The women’s group and Colour are her babies. She created the concept and her input has had a huge impact on many thousands of women who have attended since they began. Her heart is, quite genuinely, to bless and encourage women. The fact that many find it too fluffy or cringe-worthy doesn’t mean that it isn’t meeting a need in many women’s lives.
I was the women’s group leader for our outreach service many years ago, and was there when Bobbie changed the format of the women’s weekly meetings and introduced Colour. Based on my limited dealings with Bobbie during that time, I found her to be a very caring, gracious lady. Unless something very dramatic has changed over the last 7 or so years, I would imagine she still is–regardless of the press she may have been receiving.
Having said that though, I do believe that a change of emphasis regarding the use of volunteers would go a long way to keeping people from burning out. Again, just not sure this is going to happen, as the emphasis for so long has been the importance of serving within the life of the chuch. The more sensitive the person, the more likely they are to nearly kill themselves in the process of trying to meet the expectations (perceived or otherwise).
Love, Deb
August 5th, 2007 at 1:48 pm
Beg to differ folks. I see no similarities between what Emblazoned is going through and what AVB went through. Unless you want to tell me Emblazoned is a victim of his own gross moral turpitude a la AVB (and Mesiti) and wants to make a career of it.
Emblazoned, stay cool and don’t over analyse. This is not the end of the world. (It just feels like that sometimes).
August 5th, 2007 at 2:03 pm
“Emblazoned, have you considered anti-depressants? Although I dont like the idea of them myself, I have used them to get through some difficult times. If you are not sleeping, thats pretty serious and if prolonged you could be facing some worse health issues. I found the anti-deps helped me stop going over and over things in my sub-conscious and got me back on track in a couple of days”.
I concur. When I went through the process - I did not take anti-depressents, even though my doc advised me I should think about it.
In hindsight, I should have - as the process/insomnia has lasted much longer than was healthy.
Running also helps.
August 5th, 2007 at 3:58 pm
Again I will second what LF said.
Basics like eating properly, drinking lots of water, FORCING yourself to go to bed on time, a brisk 1/2 hour walk each day - if not more vigorous exercise and focussing on every day matters - work, family, friends - go a long way to staving off the black dog. Enlist the help of your girl, your family and friends if need be.
Feel like venting? Tell your girlfriend to make you go for a walk while you vent to her or to not allow you to vent after 9pm on the phone etc etc. (I know it sounds trite but I have to manage a couple of people at work with bad depression so I have to be gentle yet firm when they are having a bad day and really, little things like that DO help - and hey, those who care can understand if you get stroppy at them.)
If pain persists, do see your doctor. However, happy pills - if they are suitable (not all work for everyone) - will only help with the symptoms (and some do need help with the symptoms) and not eliminate the cause.
August 5th, 2007 at 4:07 pm
emblazoned…there’s good advice here, and I’m sending virtual hugs your way.
August 5th, 2007 at 4:10 pm
If pain persists, do see your doctor. However, happy pills - if they are suitable (not all work for everyone) - will only help with the symptoms (and some do need help with the symptoms) and not eliminate the cause.
Of course not, but there sure as hell help you to address the cause on an even keel!
I’m glad to see the kind of advice that is being given in this thread. Even outside of Pentacostals circles there can be a fairly nasty stigma attached to the use of anti-depressants. It is argued that because we have God, we shouldn’t have to rely on anti-depressants. That truly is a load of crap - it is no more sensible than to suggest that a broken leg doesn’t need a cast.
Emblazoned, it sounds you are feeling fairly weak and vulnerable at the moment. Embrace this. It is only out of weakness and pain that true redemption can take place. We worship of God of love, who rules with the reed and not with the rod. It is through weakness that we will reign - not through strength.
August 5th, 2007 at 4:14 pm
on second thoughts, here are the things that help me manage stress (including that from church-related things!)
- venting to my partner
- venting to friends who can give me a bit of perspective
- during exam time, I was partial to a shot of something like Baileys in hot chocolate before bed. It helped me sleep, but it wouldn’t be enough to make me groggy like sleeping pills (personally I’d look into sleeping pills before anti-depressants - it’s amazing what a difference being able to sleep makes)
- watch lighthearted TV before bed…avoid things that get my mind whirring and my heart racing
- as others have mentioned, exercise. If you’re really upset, there’s nothing like running as fast and as hard as you can (I’ve also been known to put my mattress up against the wall and pummel it…probably a pretty funny sight since I’m quite petite and wouldn’t know how to throw a punch even if I had to). There’s nothing like a good long run or a bike ride to wear you out and make you feel like sleeping…it’s even better when followed by a long hot bath!
The only thing that anti-depressants will do is give you a little lift - you might need this lift to be able to do other things (ie have the strength to get out of bed, go for a run, see a counsellor). However anti-depressants don’t actually fix anything.
August 5th, 2007 at 5:58 pm
Saint it doesn’t appear that your spirit matches your name.
For those who know me personally know it is not about promoting a book its about telling a story that happens to be the same for 1000’s of people who possibly before didn’t have a voice. I know that people from all over the world read signposts and may have wanted some context to the words i was offering to emblazoned and others who have to work through the issues of being badly let down by the people in churches who you thought had your best interests at heart and you classed as closer than your own brothers and sisters.
Sorry if it came across as self promotion……that was not my intention
August 5th, 2007 at 7:14 pm
Dont do exercise because it will only give you a temporary lift, and it dosent address the real problem.
August 5th, 2007 at 7:39 pm
I don’t believe anyone’s suggesting that someone SHOULDN’T take anti-depressants, wazza.
August 5th, 2007 at 8:24 pm
Certain things will trigger the memories and awaken the buried emotions. that was most of us couldn’t think about it for years……..to think was too painful. Best to shut it down sometimes.
One person told me that even attending a larger personal development conference sent them into a panic attack. too many similarities with the music and atmosphere.
I’ve jsut been working with some who dissonance was so great that there were several suicide attempts.
Current solution. 12 months of not thinking about God, the church or christianity………its all on the shelf for the time being. it helped to keep me sane for 6 years.
You’ll know emblazoned went its time.
August 5th, 2007 at 9:59 pm
I felt the need to clarify a few things on anti depressants as I feel there have been some incorrect information posted. My only qualification is a christian who has and still suffers from clinical depression and second a degree in nursing where we studied mental health and pharmacology.
Firstly they are not “happy pills” as they do not elevate your mood such as alcohol and drugs such as valium etc. Today’s anti depressants correct brain chemistry, when the chemicals just aren’t going where they should. They are like a key that opens the door to allow the chemicals to get across etc. It is similar to a diabetic needing insulin etc.
Does emblazoned need anti depressants? possibly yes. Ongoing grief, sorrow which does not resolve can cause a chemical imbalance. Past posts have quoted links to articles on people suffering post traumatic stress from bad church experiences, where often, depression of a chemical nature, sets in.
Sleeping pills are addictive, where as the new anti depressants (ask your GP) are not and also at the same time address the insomnia which is often a symptom of depression.
“Don’t do excercise it only gives you a temporary lift”
Well actually, exercise will help as it helps the malfunctioning brain chemistry in the depressed person, function better. The only problem is the depressed person rarely feels like exercising as fatigue is a huge factor. Just a twenty minute walk around the block each day will do you the world of mental health good. Think about God and his love for you and not church stuff as you walk. This may be tricky as I remember for me it was hard to separate the two because you have many questions for God about the stuff.
Time out from church is good. I have read this in a web article about recovery from spiritual abuse, that a break from church is recommended. I don’t think many pastors would say “stay home” though. It worked for me. I had three years off. During that time I just soaked up God, in my own private world where no one could tell me what a failure etc I was. I have just started back at a new church. I tried to go before that time but I started crying every time the worship started and I felt the panic attacks etc.
There is hope at the end of your dark tunnel emlazoned. You can’t see it now. I remember it. But God was always there. He didn’t say much, just held me through it. But looking back that was all I needed. I am so praying for you tonight along with the other bloggers who feel for you.
August 6th, 2007 at 9:53 am
I agree totally Janene. I was just making a silly point at 115. Sorry for being negative.
August 6th, 2007 at 4:13 pm
No problem wazza. “Apparently” as christians we are not allowed to be depressed, so I am a bit of an advocate for speaking out on this topic. Thanks everyone for allowing me a soapbox.