Hillsong - A Case For Change
There has been much talk, in the threads about documenting a “Case For Change” for Hillsong.
And very soon, Tanya Levin’s new book “Glass Houses” will hit both the boookstores, and the words contained within will be discussed and debated across the Blogosphere.
Recently, the Bulletin published a positive article on Hillsong, and to be more specific, the closing sermon:
“Skinner addressed the crowd with a blunt message: “You can’t separate God in his awesome power in heaven from the snotty, bloated kid with the fly in his eye in the ditch. God is not impressed by the size of our church. God is not impressed by how many times we go to church but by how much we become like Jesus. The world is on an accumulation binge - give me more and more and more - but God is a giver.”
We have all discussed the ‘what needs to change’ - but I am now left thinking.
1) Is real Change possible within Hillsong and other contemporary Churches?
2) What will be the real driver for change in the Contemporary Church (that includes Hillsong) - Critique or the Gospel?
3) Is reconcilliation without compromise really possible between the Contemporary Church and those overwhelmingly disenfranchised by it?
August 14th, 2007 at 1:19 pm
When I say ‘losing’ I don’t mean in the sense of them never being in our lives again. In a church where there is community taking place outside of organised meeting times, and where people gather because of mutual or work-related pursuits, or common interests, or genuine relationships, it is hard for people to discover that their friend is now going to another church, or, sadly for all, leaving Christian life altogether.
If they go to another church, with, perhaps, a different ethos, emphasis or perspective, they will be making new friends, and will be engaged in a related, yet different set of values, and the commonality they had with their previous church friends will largely be changed.
This won’t mean they are no longer friendly, but if they change from, say, being an evangelical in a church which doesn’t believe in healing for today or speaking in tongues, to a charismatic church, because they have met a new set of friends who have shown them that this is Biblical, yet their old church rejects this, there will be some areas of their life which will have moved into a changed set of principles.
There may indeed be forces in that old church which will discourage the friendship because some would feel threatened. This is where friendships are really tested, isn’t it?
On the other hand, it is a fact that much of what we do in church life is connected to our call and commission to win souls and make disciples, and it is, in some ways more effective to all be on the same page. The truth is that we generally only have a handful of true friends, those kind of friends who really love us totally unconditionally, know us well, and are considered part of our lives. They may not even be in the same local church.
The rest are still friends, but more on an acquaintance level, meeting weekly, or a couple of times a week, and our friendship is based on common interests and goals. When these change, the friendship may diminish. That is life. If they are no longer part of your church life, there is every possibility that you won’t spend as much time as before meeting up, but if they are really relational, intimate, matey mates, they will always be friends, and no ethos or emphasis is going to change this.
August 14th, 2007 at 1:57 pm
FaceLift…
I agree that people usually leave a church for some reason…I guess I’m just more idealistic and would like to believe that people would want to find out what drove someone to leave, and would also be committed to working through those differences and maintaining the relationship. I know that some of my closest friends are those who I have (or have had) significant theological differences with, but when both parties are committed to building a relationship and working through difference, that can be so incredibly rewarding. I don’t see any point in spending all my time hanging out with people who think just like me - to me, discipleship is at least in part about being pushed and pulled in different directions, it’s about being challenged to revisit my views and behaviour. (Incidentally, that’s one of the reasons I appreciate signposts and the contributions made by people like the rev, abtruth and the saint…we might not always agree, but generally we can engage in a polite yet robust and fruitful conversation).
August 14th, 2007 at 8:27 pm
“Let people tell their story, tell of their pain. And let others listen. We discovered that in telling, that people begin to experience a healing.
Archbishop Desmond Tutu 2000.
August 14th, 2007 at 11:42 pm
Bec - “Fabio - do you see church as a community? Because if so, what’s the big deal with people calling you at home or on your mobile “about church related things”. I mean, that’s what friends do, isn’t it? Don’t they call each other and chat about the things they have in common?”
I see the church as a community. I see my close circle of friends as more my “church” than any institution. This is why I said I think she struggled to make friends in the first place. The problem is that she’s targetted the whole of Hillsong and said there was no follow up when she left. You just said that friends should follow up which is the way it usually is. I don’t mind if my friends call me about church related things. Maybe she needed to write a book about her so called friends rather than Hillsong. Was she expecting Brian Houston to call her up and ask her to come back? I know if I suddenly left I would have friends calling me.
August 15th, 2007 at 12:05 am
Hi Fabio,
I am sure that there were lot’s good people amongst the ranks of the soldiers of the German Army in the time of Hitler.
I think Tanya’s Book is targeting a corrupt system and the leaders at the helm - not the good people within.
August 15th, 2007 at 12:24 am
Here here Lionfish. It’s about targetting the leaders, who force stuff down many peoples throats and actively seek to prevent critical thinking…i see people driven to the brink by performance pressure…my girlfriend’s sisters boyfriend (! Perhaps I should just say potential brother-in-law) goes to rehearsals for his creative arts performance multiple nights every week for months and months…he’s already doing bible college and he works like a demon…it seems ok for him now…but i think of Geoff…
August 15th, 2007 at 9:03 am
fabio - some interesting questions raised there?!
Do I expect someone like BH to follow someone like Tanya up initially? Well, on one level, no - I don’t think it’s possible for BH to pay such attention to each and every attendee at HS. Do I think this reveals something about the problems of the megachurch structure? You bet. I think that “church” should be “a community of faith” and I don’t think that big institutions can do this (even allowing for the Willow Creek small group stuff). It was actually this issue that draw me to the emerging church (in Melbourne) in the first place - communities have been prepared to divide and become smaller rather than get too big.
Do I expect someone like BH to follow someone like Tanya up down the track when she’s popping up on blogs, in newspaper articles and is being excluded from the church? I most definitely do. I don’t believe that the senior minister - or the CEO of any kind of organisation - should be sitting on their hands when that kind of thing is occurring. HS and BH would have known of Tanya’s book loooong before it came out, and at the very least BH could have met with her to discuss it (did this occur??)
Finally…I sincerely hope that you are right that you would have friends calling you if you left suddenly. However I can’t help but point out here that this is EXACTLY why so many people get hurt when they leave a church…people leave, confident that their friendships will remain, confident that they will hear from friends…and then you don’t. Weeks go by and you hold on to hope, then months go by…and then maybe after 6 months, or a year, you find yourself asking some really tough questions about your worth as a human being, whether people really cared about you or whether they were only interested in you because you were in their proximity every week, whether they were really interested in you or whether they only paid attention because of the contribution you were making…I don’t think that the people that fail to follow up others are “bad people”…I think there are issues of structure and culture here.
The fact is that my husband and I hardly ever get to see some of the people we care about most, because they’re constantly tied up with church meetings, and with tending to those that they feel they have “formal” obligations to (ie members of their small groups).
August 15th, 2007 at 9:09 am
emblazoned - I know quite a few blokes (including my husband) who have been burnt out by performance pressure. The result is guys in their mid-20s who have no interest in contributing anything at all…it’s such a loss to everyone. It’s not just the performance pressure either…quite a lot of my mates look back on being worship leaders etc and feel incredibly disillusioned and even angry about the kind of hero-worship they were exposed to. I’m sure you know what I’m talking about - a church boy with a guitar and a microphone receives a fair bit of attention from church girls!!
August 15th, 2007 at 9:12 am
“HS and BH would have known of Tanya’s book loooong before it came out, and at the very least BH could have met with her to discuss it (did this occur??)”
No. Tanya advised them she was writing a book and asked to catch up with them to discuss. She had no response.
August 15th, 2007 at 9:28 am
BH found the time to talk to Tim Costello about Tim’s concerns/views, even though Tim was completely outside his congregation. If he can do that, then surely he can find the time to speak to someone who grew up in his church and has been hurt and moved enough by her experiences to bother writing a book about them.
August 15th, 2007 at 9:32 am
I know if I suddenly left I would have friends calling me.
Why not take the 40 day Hillsong challenge, fabio. Dont turn up for 40 days and see how many people call you. It may be enlightening.
August 15th, 2007 at 10:18 am
It has been my observation that within AOG circles there are the ’somebodys’ and the ‘nobodys’ - if your a ‘nobody’ well you can disappear quite easily.
No money, no public profile, no upper tier job within your field = ‘nobody’.
August 15th, 2007 at 11:18 am
Why not take the 40 day Hillsong challenge, fabio. Dont turn up for 40 days and see how many people call you. It may be enlightening.
Sounds like Derryn Hinch’ “2 Week All Bran Challenge”.
Maybe we could advertise the Hillsong Challenge in the same way?
August 15th, 2007 at 12:55 pm
Bec, i can relate all too well.
My best friends these days are not my church friends. it is a group of friends from uni that cross many different denominations and views on the world. We hang out regularly and our friendships have always been bigger than the church world.
I’m trying to think of friends from my five years of Hillsong who have taken the initiative with me in the past two years.
Hmm. One. Sort of.
The count is over…oh…just to show I’m not living in a victim mentality; how many times did I take the initiative with people there in the last two years? Dependinghow you count it, maybe a dozen or more.
maybe i’m just bad at making friends, and people don’t really like me as a person….
Hmm…my high school friends (when I was only at that school for four years) we still meet up occassionally…also, my friends from uni are tight and there’s no room for ‘just keeping up appearances’ with that crew.
So….i have taken the initiative, several groups at least enjoy my company/seek me out…..Hillsongers havent bothered….
Interesting.
August 15th, 2007 at 1:14 pm
emblazoned,
for what it’s worth - coming as it does from a disembodied voice in cyberspace! - I can understand your pain and I’ve really appreciated getting to “know” you a little bit on Signposts. You always come across as a top bloke. I don’t think you sound like a victim - I don’t think I’ve ever been “a victim” - I’ve sought ALWAYS to take responsibility for my emotions and I’ve also taken the initiative on numerous occasions. Unfortunately many of the people I’ve needed/wanted to respond haven’t/couldn’t do so. I don’t really understand why. I’ve sometimes wondered whether it’s because it opens up too many difficult issues for them…I mean, if someone like BH was to sit down with Tanya Levin and REALLY listen, it would be quite painful for him, right?
I also think that those who take personal responsibility and the initiative get the double whammy here (which is why I question fabio and FaceLift’s suggestions that there are good reasons why communication breaks down when people leave). I know that some people “slip through” the gaps because they appear so resilient in terms of emotional stability and social networks…basically each individual assumes that they’re “not needed” or that someone else is “dealing with it”.
August 17th, 2007 at 11:50 pm
Embalzoned,
Hillsong don’t give a shit about you. Worse, they will think you are “dangerous” because you are a thinking person … I know its a cliche - but you have esacped from the “Matrix”. That takes courage.
I have found my friends are those guys from school and those from work and those from my old mainstream Church …
You will only ever have as many close friends at any one time as fingers you can count on one hand.
You have my email, and if you ever want to chat - just email me and I will send you my numbers. Like many other people here I empathise with what you atre going through.
You will come through - like I said before … wiser and stronger.
August 20th, 2007 at 10:01 pm
Thanks Lionfish.
I’m feeling a lot better these past few days..simply by not focusing on these issues and getting on with life.
September 1st, 2007 at 10:36 pm
I have no idea what this is about - I am just trying to be the last poster on the threads - leaving my mark for posterity’s sake.