All good things…
When we first started this site way back in February 2003, we never imagined the way that it would morph and develop to ultimately become what it is today. What started out as a means for us to share and workshop some of our writing has turned into a site focussed much more around a community of people. It has certainly been illuminating.
But four and a half years is a long time. In that time our RL profiles have changed, and to be honest, Phil and I have both lost a sense of energy for this blog (something that would not come as a surprise to regular commenters, who have become accustomed to the fact that we aren’t around as much as we once were). That energy includes monitoring comments, responding to inquiries and requests to change/delete references, and so on.
We have spent several months now discussing what we would do with or about this site. This is what we have come up with. We recognise that the people who comment here have become a community of sorts and we want to give every opportunity for that to continue in some form. We toyed with allowing someone else to take over this site entirely. However, we want to maintain our existing archive as it is a bit of a scrapbook for us. And therefore relinquishing control over signposts isn’t something that we are comfortable with.
So for now we propose to just close the site. The content will remain but we will close the comments on all posts. Closing comments will be a bit of a lengthy process and will commence in the next couple of weeks, starting from the oldest posts. It is possible that in future we will start something new at this site. We might even get six months down the track, decide that we can’t bear to be without this blog and bring it back up - we don’t think so though.
We encourage commenters and others who might wish to maintain the “signposts community” to make some plans in the comments of this thread. It might be starting a group blog or a forum which reflects the same sort of open conversation which takes place here. We are happy to assist in whatever way we can, including directing future visitors to whereever you want.
We will publish a “last post” when we come to finally close off all of the comments, but for now we just wanted to thank our readers and commenters for the last 4 and a half years. To those that have helped with guest posting, and to those that have engaged in conversation and have in some way had their thinking or questioning as a result of this site, we thank you.
August 19th, 2007 at 1:07 pm
Thanks Dan & Phil,
It was a Godly provision for its time. Haven’t commented for a while just lurked occaisionally but I was provided for when I needed it.
Grace
August 20th, 2007 at 10:54 am
Let it be known that Lance is moderating comments over at Signposts 2.
So in case he doesn’t let another one through, here’s what I just posted….
I agree. The original signposts at least accepted differing view points. Dan & Phil were actually IN ministry, looking to spread the gospel. Lance is purely motivated by a hatred of all things pentecostal. He only goes to church to mock other christians or gather “evidence” against the church of the day. Ministry? Hardly. I give this blog 6 months tops before most people see it for what it really is, the personal hate files of a bitter gay man, and bail to greener, more intelligent pastures. If people reacted to the gay community the way Lance reacts to the Pentecostal community he’d be crying all the way to the court house.
If Lance is going to moderate comments that don’t fit his limited world view then this blog is just useless. Now Lance, will you moderate this comment or allow it through? My guess is you’ll hit the delete button faster than lightning.
Signposts 2…. the sequel always sucks.
August 20th, 2007 at 12:05 pm
Phil and dan - see what you’ve started. Now you MUST keep signposts one operational just to keep Lance honest.
August 20th, 2007 at 1:37 pm
“Let it be known that Lance is moderating comments over at Signposts 2.”
When I woke up and checked Signposts 2 this morning, a Wordpress spam program decided to fire-up and intercept 4 comments.
The only ‘moderating’ I’ve done has been to over-ride the spam filter and restore the comments.
Signposts2 http://signposts2.wordpress.com is FIRMLY committed to showing the world how nasty Pentecostals can be…beyond their Sunday smiles.
You will always have a home on Signposts2 to demonstrate your two-faced narcissism..and that’s a promise.
Signposts2 wouldn’t be the same without it.
In fact, I’d prefer if you came out and said what you REALLY think..about gays and other ’sinners’ instead of dressing it up in quasi-Christian niceties.
August 20th, 2007 at 1:41 pm
Unfortunately, Signposts2’s office hours are approx 12pm WST - 2am WST (GMT+8)..so if something gets intercepted by a spam filter..then it won’t get unintercepted until lunchtime Perth time….
I don’t want to go with a ‘you have to register to comment’ system..as I’d prefer it to be a free for all…but part of the price of that is some comments will be blocked by the spam-filter overnight.
August 20th, 2007 at 3:31 pm
I’ve been looking back at some of the old classic posts - the spambots are bringing back some goodies. Heres one from Lance on the Hillsong 2005 thread.
“….if there’s one guy who deserves to be left stranded on Mud Island in Port Phillip Bay without food ..water or access to a sound desk… ….it’s the Play-The-Electric-Piano-Softly-In-The-Background-As-The-Pastor-Winds-Up-His-Sermon-And-Does-The-Altar-Call-Guy.”
heh heh. I used to be that guy.
August 20th, 2007 at 3:39 pm
How the hell did you get off the island and get access to a computer?
(Please please please please please please tell me how and why your pastors instructed you to play the music…..I am dying to find out the reasoning of their logic)
August 20th, 2007 at 3:41 pm
What I really think? I could care less about your sexual preference. As for my being a pente… I don’t even go to a church anymore so that ends that discussion right there.
August 20th, 2007 at 4:11 pm
Well Lance, there was never very much instruction from the Pastors. The whole thing is a culture that I absorbed from watching other people, other services. Then it is all a bit of trial and error, and a bit of encouragement and correction from the person running the show.
Its a bit like speaking in tongues I guess, its a culturally transmitted thing. Ang just like speaking in tongues I sometimes wonder how much of it was led by the Spirit and how much was show/manipulation.
August 20th, 2007 at 4:43 pm
You know, it worries that there’s a practice in church (Play-The-Electric-Piano-Softly-In-The-Background-As-The-Pastor-Winds-Up-His-Sermon-And-Does-The-Altar-Call) that nobody seems to know how it got there, nobody knows why it stays there, and nobody seems to have the power to get rid of it.
That solidifies my view that in the ‘contemporary’ church…the service runs the people..not the people running the service.
And when you’ve got an outside force guiding people’s actions that nobody can identify or put their finger on, then it’s probably God or Satan..and in this instance I’m not convinced it’s God.
(stands by for howls of disapproval from the pentys)
BTW, got a fiesty discussion about God and money going on at http://signposts2.wordpress.com after my visit last night to Influencers City Church (a Paradise/AOG church plant in Perth) as Facelift tries to defend the indefensible.
August 20th, 2007 at 4:58 pm
It probably stays there because it is working in some way. Like if you want to get some response to an Altar call (hate that term), then you might want to have some music which will engage people’s emotions in some way. That might make them more likely to make a decision to respond.
Also, it might make it a bit less boring for all the other people, so they wont spend their time looking at the bad haircuts of the people who come forward . .. encouraging more to respond etc. etc.
At its best the music could convey something that could not be conveyed in words. At its worst it is manipulation. Somewhere in between it could be cliched and embarrassing.
August 20th, 2007 at 5:40 pm
I think it’s one of those things that works really well as a one-off, but to do it each week is just predictable and cliched.
It doesn’t help that I’m not a fan of the electric keyboard..
Perhaps duelling banjos could be the way to go, or the trumpet/swing intro from Reet Petite…or better still ..just dump the very tired 80’s concept (come on, we’ve known it’s coming each time for 25 years now……….it’s another reason why I always put the quotation marks around the ‘contemporary’ church).
Since you’re here..and since this site refuses to die, I can ask all my church keyboardist questions.
I know on Ship Of Fools they were discussing naughty church organists, who slip in bits of modern music (in organ style) and hope that nobody notices.
Like, when an organist is playing pre-wedding hymns…they’ve been known to slip in ‘why…..are - we -wait - ing…?..’ Sometimes a muso in the congregation will pick it up. Usually nobody notices.
So if playing -The-Electric-Piano-Softly-In-The-Background-As-The-Pastor-Winds-Up-His-Sermon-And-Does-The-Altar-Call how possible would it be to slip in a slow electric-piano arrangement of Culture Club’s Church of the Poison Mind…and not have anyone notice?
This question is partly in response to Phil Baker’s ‘Slip Some Words into Your Sermon competition’ http://www.sliceoflaodicea.com/?p=325
August 20th, 2007 at 7:06 pm
A few years ago I was at a youth thing at CCC. Jurgen had just done a very successful altar call.. There were at least 20 people who had come to the front. After the whole “repeat a couple lines and *poof* you’re saved” the band started playing something joyful, loud, and rocking to celebrate. Jurgs (as we called him) turned around angry and did the cliched cut throat at the band to get them to stop. Then of course, the lovely soft keyboards started up and it got a whole lot more “spiritual”. It was a beautiful, moving moment.
August 20th, 2007 at 9:00 pm
“repeat a couple lines and *poof* you’re saved”
Was that at the Metropolitan Community church?
August 20th, 2007 at 9:57 pm
Lf - who are you calling poofs - ROTFLMAO
August 20th, 2007 at 10:04 pm
Daisy
God bless - may He help you tread the path that will keep you close to Him and not caught up in the traps that threaten our walks at almost every turn.
Hope you and all the others on the blog who have been burnt by “church” find some people to fellowship and encourage each other in that walk.
Thanks to all for the forbearance with some of my meanderings. It has been a privilege. See you in glory if not before.
MN
August 20th, 2007 at 10:05 pm
Yeah, you have to watch these prophets. It was Elisha who started the music ministry thing when he called for a minstrel to play anointed worship music so that he could prophesy. He also had an edge about him, which may go wth the call, bcause a bunch of youth were calling him ‘Baldy, baldy!” one day and he called down fire on them and *poof* they were all burnt to a crisp. You just don’t mess with the anointing!
August 20th, 2007 at 10:07 pm
hEY PHIL AND DAN - WHEN IS THE END COMING?
http://photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=1956368
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/9941/CameronCardow.gif
http://www.atheistalliance.org/aaw/the_end_is_near.gif
http://my.tbaytel.net/rpepper/endisnear2.jpg
August 21st, 2007 at 9:00 am
Not until I have crafted my last post - I hope!
August 21st, 2007 at 10:06 am
I admit I’m an agent of Satan, but lately my duties have been largely ceremonial.
Who is going to have the last word on this blog?
In response to 132, I dont know if “Church of the poisoned mind” would be very easy to slip in to the worship music. I have put a few phrases of “What if God were one of us?”. Nowadays I would put in “Big Time” by Peter Gabriel -
I’ll be a big noise
With all the big toys
So much stuff I will earn
And I’ll pray to a Big God
As I kneel in the Big Church
All very slow and spiritual of course.
August 21st, 2007 at 10:18 am
Hey Lance, you might get a kick out of this, when I was preaching at the State Youth Games and it came to the response time, (not an altar call but an alternative to an alter call that I thought was pretty cool and was dreamt up by a friend of mine) a guitar player snuck up on stage and started playing softly. After about a minute I couldn’t take it anymore and without the mike, I just turned around and said, “hey bro please stop” which he did.
Hate the manipulativeness of some of the things we do.
rev
August 21st, 2007 at 11:40 am
Why is preaching during an altar call not manipulative, but playing music is?
In preaching do you ever appeal to anyone’s emotions? Why is this not manipulative? In preaching do you ever encourage anyone to do something they would not otherwise have done? If yes, then its manipulative. If no, what the hell is the point of it?
August 21st, 2007 at 12:10 pm
“Hey Lance, you might get a kick out of this, when I was preaching at the State Youth Games and it came to the response time, (not an altar call but an alternative to an alter call that I thought was pretty cool and was dreamt up by a friend of mine) a guitar player snuck up on stage and started playing softly. After about a minute I couldn’t take it anymore and without the mike, I just turned around and said, “hey bro please stop” which he did.
Hate the manipulativeness of some of the things we do.
rev”
You have atoned for your sin of speaking at Revenue Church, my son.
Now the secret can be revealed.
You know that mysterious detention centre the Howard Government has been building on Christmas Island?
It’s to house all the Play-The-Electric-Piano-Softly-In-The-Background-As-The-Pastor-Winds-Up-His-Sermon-And-Does-The-Altar-Call-Guys.
August 21st, 2007 at 12:28 pm
“Why is preaching during an altar call not manipulative, but playing music is?
In preaching do you ever appeal to anyone’s emotions? Why is this not manipulative? In preaching do you ever encourage anyone to do something they would not otherwise have done? If yes, then its manipulative. If no, what the hell is the point of it?”
I suppose I just can’t imagine some dude with a harp or a lyre sneaking up behind Jesus while he’s wrapping up the Sermon on the Mount…
Musical beds (hey, there’s hip media production jargon) are for radio and TV commercials about mattrasses and funeral homes and Woolies, not for communicating the gospel to someone.
I think we can also do without the auctioneers-style patter during the altar call.
Brad Bonhomme of Influencers City Church in Perth on Sunday night did this 10 second countdown thing..to try and get people to hurry up and get their arse down the front…
He’d say ‘I’ll give you 10 more seconds….this is your last chance….(20 seconds more patter)…..five seconds….it’s your opportunity to be a friend with Jesus (another 15 seconds of patter) …..TWO seconds….I’m giving people every chance but you need to come now’……etc…so the last 10 seconds was agonisingly stretched out to a minute.
It’s all just very silly.
Bonhomme’s apparently a former youth pastor..and he was treating grown-ups like kids…like penty youth pastors generally do when they make senior pastor and forget that they’re now talking to mostly adults.
August 21st, 2007 at 12:43 pm
Musical beds (hey, there’s hip media production jargon) are for radio and TV commercials about mattrasses and funeral homes and Woolies, not for communicating the gospel to someone.
Who made that rule up? Next you’ll be saying we cant have coffee while hearing the gospel and the whole emerging church will be decimated.
Stained-glass windows? Out. Movies? Out. Everything must go except for direct quotes from the Bible. King James version only.
August 21st, 2007 at 1:46 pm
“Everything must go except for direct quotes from the Bible. King James version only.”
With Homer reading the text.
August 21st, 2007 at 1:52 pm
I invoke the ‘Dan doesn’t like slippery-slope arguments’ rule of Signposts (even though Dan doesn’t care about Signposts any more)
I think guys and gals who play tinkly electric piano (or guitar) music as the pastor’s wrapping up his massage…er…message..should be sent to Mud Island…or the new gee-whiz detention centre on Christmas Island.
That’s all - we don’t have to revert to bluestone walls, creaking floorboards and that ’strange 70’s smell’.
August 21st, 2007 at 5:03 pm
Just coz you dont like us minorities, you want to lock us up on some remote island? We are no more a threat to Christianity than those ladies who make the tea and scones after the service. ARE THEY NEXT?? WHERE WILL YOU STOP ????
August 21st, 2007 at 10:14 pm
I used to be a Play-The-Electric- Piano-Softly-In-The- Background-As-The-Pastor- Winds-Up-His-Sermon- And-Does-The- Altar-Call-Guy at a Pentecostal church.
We did it because it definitely increased the chance of people responding to the pastor’s call to come down the front. It worked in the same way as coaxing a child to take yucky medicine by making it more palatable.
Is it manipulative? Hell yes. But it’s done with the best of intentions. We know what’s best for the troubled person in the congregation debating whether to respond or not.
What arrogant bastards we were. Off to Mud Island I go…
August 21st, 2007 at 10:17 pm
On the topic of sneaking in secular songs during services, we would do this often. Once I got the band to play a song by Pink Floyd called Comfortably Numb. While it’s a really cool song, it’s about drug use.
The fact that *no one* noticed made me realise just how insulated the Pentecostal church culture generally is. I began to question whether being a piano guy in such a place was the most constructive use of my time.