All good things…
When we first started this site way back in February 2003, we never imagined the way that it would morph and develop to ultimately become what it is today. What started out as a means for us to share and workshop some of our writing has turned into a site focussed much more around a community of people. It has certainly been illuminating.
But four and a half years is a long time. In that time our RL profiles have changed, and to be honest, Phil and I have both lost a sense of energy for this blog (something that would not come as a surprise to regular commenters, who have become accustomed to the fact that we aren’t around as much as we once were). That energy includes monitoring comments, responding to inquiries and requests to change/delete references, and so on.
We have spent several months now discussing what we would do with or about this site. This is what we have come up with. We recognise that the people who comment here have become a community of sorts and we want to give every opportunity for that to continue in some form. We toyed with allowing someone else to take over this site entirely. However, we want to maintain our existing archive as it is a bit of a scrapbook for us. And therefore relinquishing control over signposts isn’t something that we are comfortable with.
So for now we propose to just close the site. The content will remain but we will close the comments on all posts. Closing comments will be a bit of a lengthy process and will commence in the next couple of weeks, starting from the oldest posts. It is possible that in future we will start something new at this site. We might even get six months down the track, decide that we can’t bear to be without this blog and bring it back up - we don’t think so though.
We encourage commenters and others who might wish to maintain the “signposts community” to make some plans in the comments of this thread. It might be starting a group blog or a forum which reflects the same sort of open conversation which takes place here. We are happy to assist in whatever way we can, including directing future visitors to whereever you want.
We will publish a “last post” when we come to finally close off all of the comments, but for now we just wanted to thank our readers and commenters for the last 4 and a half years. To those that have helped with guest posting, and to those that have engaged in conversation and have in some way had their thinking or questioning as a result of this site, we thank you.
August 21st, 2007 at 11:07 pm
yes I suppose preaching is a bit manipulative, but it is straight forward manipulation, I tell the truth, and engage the emotions, but I am not using trickery, or subterfuge. The gospel is emotional, it will be emotional all by itself, but trying to coax other to respond in ways that validate myself, or even the message, by use of superfluous techniques is in my opinion disingenuous.
rev
August 22nd, 2007 at 2:54 am
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August 22nd, 2007 at 9:17 am
I believe christians should be on guard not to manipulate or be manipulated by people albeit through ANY means, electric piano, preaching, works, acceptance or otherwise.
Late night SBS screened a documentary on its Hot Docs Series.
Jonestown: the Life and Death of the People’s Temple. copyright 2006.
The story was told objectively by the very people who were part of the People’s Temple including Jim Jones’ son.
908 people took their lives….only 5 escaped into the jungle.
Approx 80 people escaped death by being on work detail that fateful day.
5 people including a US congressman were murdered at an air strip leaving/escaping just hours prior to the carnage beginning.
It made confirmed graphically to me, that people need to express questions, doubts, concerns, that envirnoments should exist where people can question leadership without fear of reprisal and speak and question freely in the churches they attend. What happens when fear and control are used to manipulate people, what happens when people slowly except a ‘total system’ is spiritual abuse that is ruthless,brutal and in this example deadly.
Now the churches and aspects of church life we have discussed on this blog are no where near as toxic and damaging as Jonestown but it is healthy for christians to be able to discuss any aspect of church life that bothers them however annoying for church leadership. Any theologically unsound practices or ungodly behaviour by church leadership needs to be examined and needs to be dealt with in a open and merciful manner. Any tendancy that faintly resembles cultish tendancies, that may apear when church leadership are untouchable or control their people ruthlessly needs to be addressed. When Christ becomes secondary and personality becomes primary or worse idolary or the ‘organisation’ becomes the primary source of focus this needs to be watched carefully.
Many of the discussions we have had on this blog were so relevant and I thought of them whilst I was watching……..
It is a documentary that is extremely distressing but well worth watching.
August 22nd, 2007 at 12:21 pm
I agree Daisy!
I watched the program last night and noted with fascination the growth of total power by one “leader” who was never questioned and made accountable by the “members”.
Absolute power currupts absolutley!!
One of the most distressing comments was at the end when one chap said “well at least we gave it a try!”
DB
August 22nd, 2007 at 2:05 pm
I agree dogbreath the comment “well at least we gave it a try” blew me away too….I thought perhaps the person who made the comment was trying desperately to find the good in the midst of what became so contradictory to good. The comment made by one of the men who escaped into the jungle after watching his wife and infant die, and forgiving his misguided young wife for her actions was also heartbreaking…”I no longer believe in heaven” -
We so often under estimate what spiritual abuse can do to a individual and their faith beliefs. We can so often be impatient or cliched when trying to understand a individuals thinking after such experiences… Who can blame him for no longer believing?? The Holy Spirit does not need our helping hand to do what can only be achieved by Him in the end.
It also blew away the middle class aspirational pente sterotypes which we have often focused on in this blog. The people who were part of the people’s temple were kind hearted lower soco economic people who often gave all they owned who truely wanted to make a difference in the world and culture in which they lived and were quite socialist in orientation - having all things in common, community was emphasised, the stronger looking after the weaker, respect for elders etc etc…on a surface level.
I am sure the sexual deviancy that was exposed was just the tip of the iceberg….with Jim Jones preying on women and men, and young people, I can not believe children would have been safe within the community either.
It was very brave of the ex members to tell their story and I guess they probably needed the nearly 30 years of I am sure very good counselling and professional help to be able to tell their stories in such an intelligent thoughtful and articulate manner. I congratulate them, it took bravery and would not have been easy..
Congratulations too, to the documentary maker for holding the position of objective yet compassionate observer.
It was a cautionary tale every christian would do well to note and heed.
August 22nd, 2007 at 2:50 pm
Yes, preaching can be “manipulative”, but the average punter in the average Western church can do a reasonable job of deconstructing a sermon, comparing it to what they read in the Bible, etc etc. I’m not saying a great job - but we can do enough to get by.
I don’t think the same applies to music. Aussie culture is not a particularly music culture (just think of how many Pacific Islanders there are in Idol and you’ll see what I mean!), and unless you study music reasonably seriously, most people don’t know how to sit down and critique a melody or harmonies. We don’t know how to pull it apart and see how it’s affecting us. In other words, we are more likely to be manipulated by music than the spoken word.
Reonn - I don’t want people coming up the front because they’re responding to music. That’s not a commitment, that’s an emotional response with very little substance.
August 22nd, 2007 at 3:38 pm
Agreed Daisy.
My disillusionment with Hillsong seriously rocked my faith…mostly because one’s trust of spiritual leadership is seriously eroded…and after all, we only accepted the gospel because we had some trust in those who brought the message.
August 22nd, 2007 at 4:01 pm
Bec - I encourage you to watch the documentary and then I think you will fully understand the point I am making. It was an absolute deconstruction of the frog in the pot syndrome and I think we all do well to understand there are a variety of frogs and pots and be mindful.
Emblazoned - HS did you a favour, now your faith rests in Christ and Christ alone (which I have gathered from your previous posts). I still accept the message of the cross because of the one who died upon it.
The message of various hoops I can jump through to be accepted by a variety of christian ‘cultures’, those messages fall on deaf ears these days.
August 22nd, 2007 at 8:30 pm
Daisy - sorry, I wasn’t responding to your post, but rather those asserting that preaching can somehow be compared to cheesy music during altar calls. I agree that there are a variety of “frogs” and “pots” - I didn’t mean to suggest that ANY form of manipulation (via music or preaching) is ok, but rather just point out that preaching and music aren’t exaclty the same.
Daisy, will you travel across to Signposts2?
August 22nd, 2007 at 9:07 pm
“Daisy, will you travel across to Signposts2?”
Please do Daisy, & thanks for the lovely comment you made about me earlier. I have found a real resonnance in what you write & would love see you still posting (you too Bec!)
J
August 22nd, 2007 at 9:48 pm
Sorry Bec, re-read the posting and see where I misunderstood. My apologies.
Re: Travelling over to signposts2 at this stage it seems unlikely but being a woman, I may change my mind.
Thanks Jane.
August 23rd, 2007 at 8:59 am
Daisy and Jane - I really appreciate your thoughts and comments, so I hope to see you over on Signposts2 (if I get there myself!!)
August 23rd, 2007 at 9:55 am
bec, you’ve got to be kidding about the whole “we are more likely to be manipulated by music than the spoken word” argument.
Firstly, we live in a very media-literate western culture. We hear a hundred little jingles a day. Everyone is plugged in to their own little i-pod now, listening to their own personally selected music. To point the finger at the church pianist and say “you are manipulating me” is ridiculous.
Secondly musical literacy in my experience has nothing to do with a response to a piece of music. No one says, “Oh, theyve done the whole shift to G major key over here, I see what they are trying to do”. You choose to engage with something or you dont.
There are far more opportunities in preaching to manipulate people. That has been a major theme of this site. The fact that people cannot deconstruct effectively the wrong teachings on tithing or “the annointing” leads to exploitation of people, resulting in some cases to financial loss, spiritual abuse and major disruption to social and marital relationships.
Doodling around on a keyboard pales in comparison. I’m shocked at the level of feeling towards it and it makes me glad I got out of it.
August 23rd, 2007 at 10:08 am
what you are missing wazza is that this is combining the two with the express purpose of intensifying the impact emotionally. And as a music lover, I can tell you that music definately is more able to effect my emotions powerfully and quickly without cognitive content, therefore, it is very hard to judge or acknowledge. The music makes me feel things without any ability to rationally judge it. Now to use that alongside of the power of spoken word, is in my opinion very manipulative.
rev
August 23rd, 2007 at 10:19 am
I haven’t commented on signposts for a few months, and after reading this thread just wanted to say a big “thank-you” to Phil and Dan for the many hours, and all the blood, sweat and tears that have gone into this blog, that we will never know and be aware of.
Thanks heaps! This blog was a major part of my own healing and it has made a difference to my life…..
I hope that whatever happens in the future will continue to touch lives as this part of your journey has….
August 23rd, 2007 at 10:35 am
Rev, how manipulative is it to have an “altar call” or a “response time” after preaching at a sports event? I’m not saying you shouldnt have done it, but I think you are calling the kettle black. You are asking people to make the biggest decision of their lives, by coming forward in a public place in response to your words.
Then you claim that the musicians were manipulative.
It seems to me to be like going to a restaurant on your first date, asking the girl to marry you, and then complaining that the violinist was manipulating things.
August 23rd, 2007 at 11:32 am
Arius (sp?) in the 4th century propogated his heresy by song, prompting the council of nicea in 325ad
i see what you are saying wazza but music is much more powerful than you give it credit
what would happen to hillsong if they took away the music…
i can sing you all the old hymns i learnt in my first 20/30 yrs in church but i cannot remember what was preached last week
August 23rd, 2007 at 11:38 am
we only accepted the gospel because we had some trust in those who brought the message.
Really? Are you serious? You had no revelation on your own?
August 23rd, 2007 at 11:49 am
Ok, so is singing hymns or choruses manipulative? You have the power of words and music at the same time - very dangerous.
Yet the church seems to have gone OK for about 2000 years using this dangerous mix.
David set his Psalms to music. Wesley wrote hymns. Martin Luther King used musical cadences and rhythms in his oratory. It didnt bring about the end of the world, in fact it did a lot of good.
Yes music has power just as words do. Churches have used both and even mixed them up a bit for centuries. But to say that there is something specially manipulative about music in particular, or in combination with words is very strange.
You guys strain at gnats and swallow camels.
August 23rd, 2007 at 12:13 pm
Perhaps wazza you are not aware of the State Youth Games, but it is an event put on by the Churches of Christ, and is church youth groups participating in a camp where they play sports, some really sporty ones like aerobics, and chess, and then gather for a worship time in the evening. As far as I know everyone there new it was a church weekend, and most were already Christians.
Secondly, my response time was not an altar call, I did not call people up, but asked if people wanted to make a decision to take a piece of paper that all of them were given when they walked in, crumple it up and slip it into their shoe, to remind them of their commitment.
Thirdly, the commitment I was calling them to was to care for others in their communities, to support the outcasts, and do something to end the poverty of the world, and the rape of the planets resources. I was inviting them to make a commitment to a dangerous Christianity, that goes the path of suffering for others. The only mention I made to non CHristians was to apologize for talking mainly to the CHristians, and to apologize that we have not lived this out very well.
It was more like inviting people to a church event, and trying to challenge people to live what they say they believe, and asking it to be a decision made on the integrity of the message rather than the feelings invoked.
rev
August 23rd, 2007 at 12:14 pm
you are deliberately not seeing it, if you have ever been in services that do this, and I think you have, you know what we are talking about.
rev
August 23rd, 2007 at 12:17 pm
turtleneck,
of course one gets one’s own revelation, but there is always a component of trust in the given message.
For example, Protestants all trust the Nicean Council of 325. I’m not sure why they trust that council and reject all following church councils, considering that they were all filled with prayer and rigorous debate, but hey.
August 23rd, 2007 at 1:14 pm
Rev, when you impute motives to me (deliberately not seeing it .. and I think you have), instead of actually addressing the debate - that in itself is a way of manipulating the discussion.
August 23rd, 2007 at 1:34 pm
I thought Signposts was supposed to be at death’s door…
Or is it like death row in the United States where 18 years and numerous appeals go by before the lethal injection is finally given?
August 23rd, 2007 at 2:07 pm
For once I agree with Lance - time to wrap it up. Well Lance, now we can part on a high note. After 2 years we can part in agreement… Who would have thought?
August 23rd, 2007 at 2:38 pm
Rev - well said at #164.
Wazza - I think you’re misinterpreting my posts. I’m not denying that people can be manipulated via sermons. I’m just saying that I don’t think we’re as well equipped to understand how music manipulates us as we are to understand how the spoken word can manipulate us…partly because we live in such a text-based society.
Wazza, I think you’re distorting the arguments being made, ie at post 169. I’m with Rev - I think you know what we’re talking about.
I also have a problem with the hypy style of delivery of sermons and calls to the altar…the way they rise in pitch and pace, the sense of urgency that’s created. What a joke…and if you’re silly enough to answer an altar call at some massive youth event, like many people do, there’s not even any follow up, so it really doesn’t serve any purpose at all.
August 23rd, 2007 at 2:56 pm
What a joke. Bec, we dont live in a text-based society and you know it. We live in a media-savvy society where people consume sounds and images, and do very little reading. Most people are much more able to critique multi-media presentations than they are able to understand well-reasoned arguments.
You are a case in point.
August 23rd, 2007 at 3:03 pm
*starts randomly playing keyboard music in the background..to wrap up the discussion*
August 23rd, 2007 at 3:06 pm
And to say “you know what we are talking about” , is an excuse not to address the issue. You have made the claim that music is inherently more likely to manipulate than words, you ought to back it up. It is you who is misinterpreting and changing your argument between posts. I have not distorted anything.
August 23rd, 2007 at 3:06 pm
Dear Lord, you’d have hated Finney, Wesley, Edwards, Spurgeon, Moody, Graham and the like. It’s not manipulation, it’s persuasion, it’s compulsion. ‘Compel them to come!” The preaching of the gosel that brings people to salvation. Preaching is absolutely persuasion and complusion. Manipulation is a negative term.
Altar call! Well, there isn’t really an altar, but it is a call. It’s a call for salvation. It’s the call of God for a sinner to repent. “Repent all of you and be baptised, and you will receive gift of the Holy Spirit.’
Music? Well it is powerful, but what is that compared to a soul’s being saved. Music or no music, One on one or via a crowd. If the mesge has been preached, then draw the harvest. It’s the Holy Spirit who convicts, not the keyboardist.