Hillsong on ACA
For those who may have missed it—Hillsong was named as a cult amongst others including Scientology and exclusive Brethren in this video:
http://ninemsn.video.msn.com/v/en-au/v.htm?g=ad204a6d-3a51-47f0-af65-24f5b5986f4b&f=&fg=email
What do you think? Is it fair to lump Hillsong alongside the exclusive Bretheran and Scientology?
(Hurry up not much time left to lodge your final comments!)
August 17th, 2007 at 5:52 pm
Evangelicanism is a virus taking the whole world by storm. It will be the McDonald’s of the Christendom - a product of American imperialism.
Y’all are jelous coz the Deadmergents doesn’t have the same momentum as the imperialists. Maybe you should hire Saddleback consultants to change your marketing strategy.
God daym…..even my vocab is a product of imperialism.
August 17th, 2007 at 6:44 pm
ahhh but is pentecostalism evangelicalism or is it that cousin that has just repeated third grade at the age of 27
August 17th, 2007 at 8:44 pm
Scientology is obviously a cult, and not in any way Christian. How the Exclusive Brethren are called a cult is wierd. I think it’s just because they have influenced governments, and becoem a target. Hillsong is not a cult. It is a part of a recognised pentecostal movement.
Evangelicalism isn’t cultish, neither is pentecostalism.
August 17th, 2007 at 11:16 pm
Ok,
evangelicalism is not a cult, pentecostalism is not a cult. However, WOF is definitely a cult. Prosperity gospel is definitely a cult.
Simply because WOF and Prosperity teaching is heresy. So, hello Mormons and JW’s because Hillsong/CCC have joined you.
So FaceLift, how many people were healed by Benny Hinn? Were any of them followed up by the medical profession? How many of them, suffering terminal diseases stopped taking their medication and have now died?
TD Jakes, mr Oneness Pentecostal himself (he doesn’t believe in the trinity) is awesome according to Pringle.
The biggest heresy is the idea that the more successful your church and the more money you’ve got is because you have been blessed by God - because you are holier than the rest. It’s a way of keeping score.
So those christians across the world who are poor or are being killed for their faith in Jesus have clearly done something wrong …
There is something really sick about prosperity suckers.
August 17th, 2007 at 11:49 pm
Well, I watched the ACA clip, and have to say it was a totally contrived joke, which is why I don’t usually view the program. I mean, can you take these people seriously? I’m actually amazed this is even a question on here, based on an ‘news is entertainment’ gossip show, which was criticising Hillsong for having the gall to present the gospel in, what they suggest, is an entertaining way. They, and you, rarely show or talk about the other good, free, friendly, joyful, open, gospel, helpful stuff they do. It’s aways about the money, in a kind of reverse snobbery kind of way.
Tanya’s evidence that it is a cult? They overemphasised demons in the eighties! Just about every church did. Even the evangelicals and some high church devotees were accusing Pentecostals of speaking in tongues by demons. It was a thoroughly spooky time in the history of the church. Thankfully they’ve grown out of it. In fact, churches like Hillsong and Riverview have taken the dumbness and superstition out of this kind of teaching.
Bull,
I’ve been aroud Pentecostal and WoF churches for 20 years, and I’ve yet to hear anyone claim much of what you’re saying. There is definitely excess, but nothing that can’t e dealt with through sound teaching form people who are dealing with it, and there’s no more ess than you see in other church groups over some issue or other. Nothing that would be considered cultish. Never heard them claim to be more blessed by God because of money or success.
Mind you teaching on te tithe would qualify for a cult on here, and that would disqualify half the Church at least!
The man who is truly blessed is the one who has had his sins forgiven, where righteouseness is accorded to him, and his sins are not counted against him, according to David. Is that not prosperity?
What’s money but a tool, like a hammer, a saw or a screw driver. But without tools no work can be done, or atleast the work is made mre difficult.
Prosperity is relative to a person’s circumstances and environment. Prosperity is a mel on the table for a hungry man. Prosperity is the discovery of being pregnant for the barren. Prosperity is being able to afford clothes for our children, and roofover their heads in the winter. Prosperity os a bed at night for the destitute.
The rich are not necessarily evil, are they? Abraham was rich and righteous, and made wealthy even when he made wrong decisions, because God swore to bless him and be his shield and provider.
Job was, before and after his troubles, the wealthiest man on earth, and yet called righteous. The rich can also be blessed, even in their wealth, but only when their heart is in distributing and sharing it with those who have nothing, or are struggling to make ends meet. Their prosperity comes in giving. Prosperity is real, and a bona fide part of the kingdom of God, but the quest for wealth and personal gain for wealth’s sake is a curse and noose.
Riches a re snare for tose who make it their god and their goal. But, on the other hand, as the proverbs says, the blessing of the Lord it makes rich, and adds no sorrow with it. Yet it’s better be poor and contented than rich and godless. And godliness with contentment is great gain. That should be the main aim fr everyone.
There, a basic WoF take on prosperity. Don’t listen to all the bad press. It’s almost always a beat up.
August 18th, 2007 at 1:46 am
“The man who is truly blessed is the one who has had his sins forgiven, where righteouseness is accorded to him, and his sins are not counted against him, according to David. Is that not prosperity?”
No its forgiveness.
August 18th, 2007 at 3:31 am
Forgiveness indeed.
Major problems in WOF include the idea that Jesus went to Hell. The cross wasn’t sufficient in other words. If it’s not “name it claim it” then it’s not Word of Faith. The idea that positive confession for that BMW forces God to give it to you is a complete lie.
Listen FaceLift … don’t take my word for it, find out what these guys really preach and I am sure you will disown WOF. It is heresy. Saying that Jesus went to Hell (especially when Hell is a place being prepared for the devil and his angels … which means it’s not ready yet!) tells me that at the very least, they preach additional stuff to the Bible which is completely at odds with the Bible and 20 centuries of belief and practice … c’mon. They are full of crap.
May God have mercy on them.
Shalom.
August 18th, 2007 at 5:19 am
facelift, if money is a neutral thing then why does Jesus say that the “deceitfulness of riches” chokes out the word of God?
rev
August 18th, 2007 at 11:55 am
Facelift (and others), I’d encourage you to read my article “Are Money and Possessions Morally Neutral” at http://ministryofincompetence.blogspot.com/2007/06/are-money-and-possessions-morally.html . I’ve argued that they’re not, but if you disagree, I’d be more than happy for you to help me refine my understanding.
August 18th, 2007 at 3:59 pm
Simply, DC, if you deny the need of money and possessions, you’ll either walk around naked, without a home, and never work, or eat, except for begging, or hunting and collecting, which still requies a cliam on the land of some kind, or you’ll be totally dependent on others who will provide you with food clothing and shelter, which obviously means they will have to earn, or find, money and possessions for you, andyou’ll be dependent n others to have an association with moneyand possessions to support you, which is totally unworkable if we’re all to live the same way. It’s a ludicrous position, and not alluded to in scripture at all.
Paul worked for his money and possessions, such as they were. He wasn’t married, so didn’t have financial family considerations. I challenge anyone with a spouse and children here to live without money or possessions for just two weeks - out on the street with no roof over your head, nor extra clothes, no money for food, rent or school needs, no cash for soap, shampoo, washing powder, washing machines, hills hoists, travel to and fro, medical supplies for sick family members, shoes, TV set (won’t need any electrical appliances, because no electricity - can’t pay bill, oh and no water). Dream on!
Yeah, money! Sure, you can all do without it, as you sit there commenting through your commodity-driven, electrically-powered, internet-connected, computer-enabled blogging lifestyle thinking you can deny all need of it, but, in the real world, if you even attempt to have this computer-driven world wide forum without actually coming into possession of the hardware and wherewithall to go about having your say in this way, you’ll never make it, because you need stuff to do stuff. Come on, be real, folks.
It’s a form of denial and arrogance to fail to accept that while in this world you’ll actually need money, and will, from time to time, and more so when you have family responsibilities, come into contact with possessions.
Jesus died on the cross for us, Bull, but he also went into the grave, from whence, Peter reveals (1 Peter 3:18-22), he preached to the spirits there, and led captivity captive (Eph.4:9-10), having descended into the lower parts of the earth.
As you say, he could to have gone to hell, gehena, or hell, tartarus, but to hades, to the grave, which is where dead people go, and Jesus having actually died, went there for us all, but death could not hold him, because he was sinless.
It ws Jesus’ blood at the scurging and at the cross, his death and the evidence of his death, his burial which paid for our sins, but it is his resurrection which empowered us to be resurrected in him. The cross alone is not enough. The death, burial and resurrection of Christ was required for our new life and the new creation.
Blessed [to go straight, walk, go on, advanced, make progress] is the man whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputes not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.
Do yo have an alternative prosperity to being blessed by God, Lionfish?
August 19th, 2007 at 5:25 am
Back to the original question: no, Hillsong is not a cult.
Let me take the time to thank Phil and Dan for hosting Signposts over the years. Wish you guys all the best.
August 19th, 2007 at 9:43 am
Not a cult? Definitely a family controlled Business franchise…
And from Tanya’s Book:
http://rynosseros.com/2007/08/19/book-review-people-in-glass-houses-tanya-levin/#comment-93
August 19th, 2007 at 1:48 pm
facelift, there is much in life that is a battle, the fact that there is a battle doesn’t mean that we are to do without completely. Is it possible that the people who we minister to may encourage us to stumble? Is it possible that the places we go in order to shine a light in dark places may effect us negatively? Of course, that doesn’t mean that we don’t deal with them, but that we are careful in how we deal with them. For instance, when I am needed to do counseling with women, I always try to do it with my wife. If this is not possible I try and do it with another woman from the church, or at the very least do it in a public place to protect both my and their integrity. Because I realize that in these situations it is possible that I might find myself tempted, or in compromising situations. Money is not nuetral, it is deceptive, it is tempting, and it is dark. When we deal with money and possessions we must use the same care as we use in the above situation, we must be careful.
The all or nothing situation you bring out is ridiculous, and is nothing I am recommending. However, we take the darkness out of money by giving it away, by using it for light, and by keeping a good eye on it, as well as being accountable to others for our use of it. I would recommend you do a bit of biblical study on the issues of money and riches, the fact is very very few people are able to live with them and continue to walk with God. Including Solomon and David who are brought up frequently. Infact even Abraham has some shocking decision making going on. No money is not a tool completely nuetral, Jesus makes it very clear that it is deceitful and chokes out the fruit of the SPirit.
rev
August 19th, 2007 at 2:24 pm
Rev,
Good comment. I struggle with the wealth riches thing too.
The Prosperity teaching does nothing to help people.
Case in point:
http://rynosseros.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/08/screencap_18082007_221024.jpg
With all due respect to Al Hirsch, I cannot understand why he does not see Hillsong as a cult - or atleast recognise them that the direction they point us in does not lead to the cross.
August 19th, 2007 at 3:02 pm
The best way to deal with the darkness of money is to redeem it by giving it away. Would you like my bank details?
LF the difference is that you recognize your issue, and are not trying to build a philosophy that makes having lots of money seem somehow spiritual and good. You are trying to figure out how to act with integrity and I applaud that. We are all on a journey, it is those that have chosen an ungodly destination and are defending it that I am concerned about. And that Meseti web site is disturbing beyond belief, why people put up with this crap is beyond me.
rev
August 19th, 2007 at 11:02 pm
Facelift:
Re: “Do yo have an alternative prosperity to being blessed by God, Lionfish?”
Coould you please remind me how God blessed each of the twelve disciples after Jesus ascended into heaven - and what was the fate of each of them.
Where is the Prosperity in the lives of the twelve?
August 19th, 2007 at 11:09 pm
don’t be stupid LF they were special people who were to start the church, not normal. Same goes for all the martyrs of the first three centuries, and the house church people in China that are suffering in poverty and imprisonment, and the missionaries all over the third world, and the people living in the ghettos like the simple way, and communality and UNOH. They just don’t have enough faith. They have a poverty mentality. They don’t appreciate the goodness of God. Don’t you know that God wants us to be blessed while many of his other children don’t even have clean drinking water. I mean you want one third of your kids to use up ninety five percent of the food toys and education that you provide them right?
rev
August 19th, 2007 at 11:48 pm
This is just religous claptrap. I have done studies of money, and riches, and, of course, there is much to be said which is both for and against, but your continual misrepresentation of scripture is misleading, as if the only reference to gold, silver, precious stones and the use and spread of resources was always wicked, but it isn’t. God permitted the use of gold, silver and precious stones ot build his Temple. Did he turn it down, or refuse andy association with it. NO. He was honoured with their gifts. He filled the Temple with his Presence, so even the priests could not enter. The gold and silver of Egypt was carried out by Israel to build and urnish the tabernacle. He obviousluy doesn’t have a problem with wealth.
Judas did however, and rebuked Jesus for allowing expensive perfume to be used to anoint him. ‘Give it to the poor’. he said, and was, in turn, rebuked by Jesus for failing to see the significance of the gift.
You put religious legalities on yourselves, and then on others, because you actually have weakness in that area, but you shouldn’t make the assumption that all of us have a weakness with money. Some of us are strong enough in our faith to be able to deal with money as a resource, without yielding to temptation.
I don’t say that arrogantly, that we’re not ever tempted, or that we have absolutely made it in that area, or could never stumble, but our goal is primarily to spread the gospel, and finance is useful to the cause, that is all, nothing more, nothing less. but if there were no koney, and I’ve been in this position more often than not, then we trust God for our provision anyway, because, as David has said, ‘I’ve never seen the righteous beg bread’, because GOd is a Father who takes care of His children.
The saints sent money to Jerusalem to help them get over a famine. The people gave so that those in need could receive. Money was deemed necessary to their survival. Jesus said it was unwise to build a tower without first counting the cost. He was talking about raising the finances to build it. The deceitfulness of riches applies to those who hear the word but are stumbled because they cannot disconnect themselves from the cares of this world, or their old associations with wealth. There was no depth to their faith, no substance to their conviction. You should speak of these things in the right context, and not be misleading.
There are others who have received the Word to good soil, and are totally sold out to the Gospel, not to money, or riches. We are full-on believers. We serve God with all we have, including our resources. We are not afraid of money. It is merely a tool, just like our hands, with which we could do good or do harm, but we choose good, or even our mouths and lips, with which we can bless or curse, but we choose to bless.
Are you saying, Lionfish, that God considers prosperity to be a curse? That we are wicked if we receive blessing, and release it again to others for the gospel’s sake?
And for goodness sake, can you get over the continual thrusting of the worse case scenario preachers you can find, and just deal with it according to scripture, one on one, because I am not discipled by any of the people you push at me here.
August 20th, 2007 at 8:29 am
Re: “And for goodness sake, can you get over the continual thrusting of the worse case scenario preachers you can find,”
They twelve Apostles can hardly be called the ‘worst case’ preachers.
August 20th, 2007 at 9:47 am
prosperity can definitely be a curse… speaking from experience
irrespective of effies joke about beauty being a curse there are many things that irredeemed and totally depraved man sets his heart on that are nothing but a curse once attained.. we are so desperate for them that we are prepared to redefine reinterpret ignore and do mental gymnastics to try and hold onto these things (idols) that we want…
let it go facelift these things enslave you and are incredibly subtle
ive had it and lost it… and you know that it wasn’t till i lost it that i realised how much of a grip it really had on me.. i thought i was so in control of it but it was controlling me..
August 20th, 2007 at 9:53 am
What did I say was the proper way to take the curse off of money? To give it away, sounds like I am acknowledging that giving away money is a good idea.
As to the temple, the temple was the place where God’s Spirit dwelt on earth. It was the place where heaven and earth intersected. Since this is true, the money that was plundered from the egyptians was both unnecessary for gold doesn’t do much good in the desert, but when it was collected it was given to be used at the place where God’s Spirit would dwell, the temple. Now, I am sure you understand that the veil was rent, and now God’s Spirit dwells in the human heart. So, it no longer dwells in a building, WE ARE THE PLACE WHERE HEAVEN AND EARTH INTERSECT!!! So, if we are going to give all of our possesions away, where should they go? To the temple of course, the temple is people that are awaiting the indwelling of God’s Spirit or experiencing it.
As to scripture, well I told you Jesus said that riches are deceitful and choke out the fruit of God’s word. But if you want more, Jesus said:
do not store up treasures for yourself on earth
Go and sell all you have and give it to the poor
Blessed are the poor
Woe unto you who are rich for you have received your reward
whatever you have done, or not done for the least of these you have done to me
I can fill up three pages just of quotes from Jesus about these things. I am not the one twisting scriptures to justify the wicked mammon who Jesus points out is a false god.
rev
August 20th, 2007 at 11:13 am
Just a quick question: I’m looking for the exact quote Tanya used from Bobbie Houston about three types of media that existed. Also, it was at the 2005 Colour Your World Conference, wasn’t it?
August 20th, 2007 at 12:04 pm
Silly Lionfish, you know what I mean - or are you calling Pat Mesiti one of the 12 Apostles?
In essence ,rev, I actually have no arguement with your assertion that riches can and do defile. I’m not really out for an argument for argument’s sake, or to do battle to prove some point, so let’s just say I’m with you on this side of things, but I disagree with you that money is in itself ‘darkness’ as you call it.
Surely, money is a blob of metal with no life, nature or consciousness, but it is the human attitude to money which can either be dark or light. I’m sure you’re saying this anyway when you say the best cure for a money habit is to give it away. Isn’t that what we are saying also?
The difference is that we, maybe, have no fear of money as a source of personal corruption, since we are under the influence of the Holy Spirit, not mammon, and beleve it is appropriate to be a user of money for the right purposes by giving, receiving giving receiving, etc, or, as others put it, by allowing it to be sown to produce a harvest, which is then, in turn sown into gospel purposes.
By sowing it into the gospel, we are, in effect, stroing up tesure in heaven, soince it is being used to assist in winning souls and making disciples, not to build a personal empire, but to extend God’s Kingdom.
August 20th, 2007 at 12:15 pm
Just out of interest FaceLift, how do you know that you don’t love your money? How do you really know?
August 20th, 2007 at 12:47 pm
Eternal security with God outweighs everything, David.
August 20th, 2007 at 12:50 pm
That seems like a lovely cliche one might use to avoid answering the question. You have money - how do you know that you don’t love this money?
August 20th, 2007 at 1:56 pm
Actually I don’t have much money. My wallet is currently empty, and I couldn’t tell you how much I have. I have assets in a home, but, as for money, we live on the edge at the moment, but not uncomfortably, and not what I would call poor.
I come from abackground of relative poverty, so I know what it is like to scrimp and save for a meal for a family. My dad held down at least two low paying jobs, working for hours for years to keep us, for which I am eternally grateful to him.
Are you planning to let your children know that poverty is the best option for their lives, and that God expects that of them?
August 20th, 2007 at 2:32 pm
Are you planning to let your children know that poverty is the best option for their lives, and that God expects that of them?
I’m planning to tell them that God wishes for them to follow him humbly, even if that means poverty.
August 20th, 2007 at 2:56 pm
Money has a spiritual force, it was created not by God but by man, and it was created in order to be able to keep more than was necessary for oneself. Try saving your harvest for your retirement when you are a farmer. Man made money so he would not need God, nor have to trust God. Therefore when we buy into the monetary system we are in league with the rebellion of man. When they asked Jesus about taxes what did he say? Give me a coin, who’s image is it on that coin? To a Jewish person, this was a graven image, the image of the man that said he was god, and the ultimate ruler of the world, was on their money and they were asking what they should do with it? He said in essence if you are gonna play with the devil, then play by his rules. But rather give your life, and trust, and strength to God, money is not nuetral, but it can be ruled, but is ruled by ridiculous charity.
As far as poverty, I have experienced a bit of povery, and I understand that it is no fun to try and feed your familiy of four with fourteen dollars for a week. But I also know that I was rich at that time compared to most of the world. What I do not do is call my fortune God’s will and in doing so condemn those much much poorer than myself to the thought that God deems them unworthy of blessing. God blesses me, but lets my brothers and sisters all around the world starve to death.
I chose to live a life of simplicity, which sometimes includes poverty, my daughters have grown to appreciate the important things in life, and have a concern for helping others, rather than being comfortable.
rev
August 20th, 2007 at 3:16 pm
Hey Rev,
Very interested by your arguments - sound very much inspired by Jacques Ellul - are they?